I do not necessarily recommend one school over the other, but would invite spiritual seekers to try both and see which one is right for them and where they are in life.
During the time I was in the Diamond Approach it was the right school for me at that point in my life.
Currently Diamond Logos is the appropriate path for me (if you have the time and the money I would definitely recommend doing both the Diamond Approach and Diamond Logos, you will unfold faster).
I would also like to add that I am not endorsed by nor am I representing either school on this blog. These are purely my experiences. My main aim here is to fill an information gap.
I am frequently asked by students of both schools what the differences are, and below I have tried to give a brief understanding in a structured way.
I would invite readers of this blog to approach the comparisons I make of the two schools with an open mind, with their Diamond Bodies/Diamond Consciousness and to steer clear of beastly behaviour and the ego’s temptations to enter into negative comparisons.
Both schools work differently and are extremely useful in different ways and for different people at different points in their lives. I will also do my best to compare them in an objective way, but forgive me if I am not 100% perfect in this as I am only human.
I will do my best in the comparison below to not show a preference or an opinion, but to simply state facts.
If you find that I am not accurate, I invite you to take a breath and inquire into yourself if your doubt is objective or if there is a part of your ego that has an agenda.
If after doing this you find that I am in fact not accurate, please leave me a comment below the article and I will do my best to correct any mistake.
If you find that I am not accurate, I invite you to take a breath and inquire into yourself if your doubt is objective or if there is a part of your ego that has an agenda.
If after doing this you find that I am in fact not accurate, please leave me a comment below the article and I will do my best to correct any mistake.
The aim of this comparison is to fill an information gap and to give students of both schools an understanding of the other school.
As far as I know no one has done this so far and judging by the curiosity and questions I get from students of both schools, I expect it will be helpful.
As far as I know no one has done this so far and judging by the curiosity and questions I get from students of both schools, I expect it will be helpful.
Structure
The two schools are quiet different in terms of structure.
In the Diamond Approach / Ridhwan school, a student begins with a group and slowly goes through the Lataifs and then through to Space, the vehicles etc (however this often depends on the group and varies from group to group).
The group often begins as open but once it closes no new students are allowed in. If a student misses 2 retreats in a row they are no longer able to participate in the group. This may be due to not being in the same space as the rest of the group.
The group often begins as open but once it closes no new students are allowed in. If a student misses 2 retreats in a row they are no longer able to participate in the group. This may be due to not being in the same space as the rest of the group.
In the Diamond Logos/Faisal Muqaddam school, students usually begin with Space
and then go onto the Lataifs.
It is not necessary however to finish the Lataifs before attending retreats on the vehicles of essence.
My impression is that the school does this because a good understanding of Space is seen as necessary before one can properly take Space from the issues that relate to the Lataifs.
This can also vary from teacher to teacher and some teachers teach permanently open groups.
Also, the Essences are partnered in different ways.
For example, in the Almaas school, the Red essence is often taught together with the Green essence (I think because the green brings compassion after the separation the Red brings? (please correct me in the comments below if you know better as I did this retreat 7 years ago).
In the Diamond Logos, The Red is taught together with the Gold.
This is because the Red is the essence of charge, and the Gold is the essence of discharge/melting.
They are seen as two sides of the same coin.
By the way are you enjoying this article? Like on facebook and be kept informed on future updates about the two schools.
and then go onto the Lataifs.
It is not necessary however to finish the Lataifs before attending retreats on the vehicles of essence.
My impression is that the school does this because a good understanding of Space is seen as necessary before one can properly take Space from the issues that relate to the Lataifs.
This can also vary from teacher to teacher and some teachers teach permanently open groups.
Also, the Essences are partnered in different ways.
For example, in the Almaas school, the Red essence is often taught together with the Green essence (I think because the green brings compassion after the separation the Red brings? (please correct me in the comments below if you know better as I did this retreat 7 years ago).
In the Diamond Logos, The Red is taught together with the Gold.
This is because the Red is the essence of charge, and the Gold is the essence of discharge/melting.
They are seen as two sides of the same coin.
By the way are you enjoying this article? Like on facebook and be kept informed on future updates about the two schools.
The Latest Book By AH Almaas
Transmission
Diamond Approach students will likely not know what this is - but it seems to me that both schools have it - the Ridhwan school practices indirect transmission of the qualities by talking about a particular quality, describing it in detail, and also describing the related issues that arise.
The Diamond Logos school works differently in that teachers most often do what I would call direct transmissions - they transmit the quality through guided meditations.
My own experience of this has been very powerful.
My own experience of this has been very powerful.
Knowledge and Theory
When I first started attending the Diamond Logos school, they would often use words like 'the Beast', 'the petty tyrant', 'the alien'.
I had no idea what they were talking about except when I remembered brief excerpts from Almaas's books.
I had no idea what they were talking about except when I remembered brief excerpts from Almaas's books.
It's interesting in that Almaas's books, he talks about these aspects of the ego, but in the Diamond Approach retreats and in private sessions with teachers I never came across these terms.
I'm not sure why.
I'm not sure why.
The Enneagram
The Enneagram is seen as important in both schools, but both place a different emphasis on it and focus on different aspects of it.
In the Ridhwan school the Enneagram is taught as a retreat where students are assisted in finding their type and there is also a strong focus on the 'soul child'.
In the Diamond Logos, there is an even stronger emphasis on it in that it is brought into almost every retreat and it is discussed in terms of a type's typical interactions with a particular quality. In addition to this, the Enneagram retreat focuses on the essential qualities and vehicles associated with each Enneagram type. Certain Enneagram types specialise in or attempt to imitate particular essential qualities and vehicles.
Issues
Teachers of the Diamond Approach are very strict in what they do and do not say to students about their issues.
I don't think any of my teachers ever directly told me about a particular issue or intuition they have about me.
The focus is more on being facilitators of developing your own Diamond Body/Diamond Consciousness.
I don't think any of my teachers ever directly told me about a particular issue or intuition they have about me.
The focus is more on being facilitators of developing your own Diamond Body/Diamond Consciousness.
Diamond Logos teachers seem to be more direct and will tell you what they see or what they sense. It is up to you then to see if it rings true.
Stupa, Chandelier, Masculinity and Feminity
I attended the Stupa retreat some years back with the Diamond Approach. It was incredibly powerful and amazing.
It wasn't however until I started attending the Diamond Logos school that I learned that the Stupa is associated with the male essence and the Chandelier with the female essence.
I thought it must be the same in the Diamond Approach, they just didn't mention that part of it or I had forgotten about it.
Having spoken to a Diamond Approach student more recently, I have been told that actually the Stupa is not taught as being related to the male essence in any way. I was also told by this student of 8 years that the Chandelier is not taught at all in the Diamond Approach (as far they are aware).
My guess is that there are not really any vehicles they associate with Masculinity/Feminity (except maybe for the Citadel, which they associate with father issues).
I'm not so sure about this and would be curious to hear from DA students who might enlighten me otherwise.
UPDATE ON CHANDELIER 3/1/2015
A student currently in the Diamond Approach has told me that the Chandelier is taught as two different vehicles in the Ridhwan school.
Pleasure is part of Markabah and is associated with Orange Essence. Below is an extract from the Almaasary:
The Markabah is a structure of essence, composed of all aspects in the diamondform except that in this dimension each aspect appears not only clear, faceted, and precise but also as the very presence of pure pleasure. Each diamond feels and tastes like wonderful piece of candy, with an affect deeply and pleasurably satisfying, a state of consciousness that fills the soul with a pleasurable bliss that penetrates and suffuses all of her field, filling all the cells of the body with a glowing and fulfilling sensation.
Inner Journey Home, p. 240
Stupa, Chandelier, Masculinity and Feminity
I attended the Stupa retreat some years back with the Diamond Approach. It was incredibly powerful and amazing.
It wasn't however until I started attending the Diamond Logos school that I learned that the Stupa is associated with the male essence and the Chandelier with the female essence.
I thought it must be the same in the Diamond Approach, they just didn't mention that part of it or I had forgotten about it.
Having spoken to a Diamond Approach student more recently, I have been told that actually the Stupa is not taught as being related to the male essence in any way. I was also told by this student of 8 years that the Chandelier is not taught at all in the Diamond Approach (as far they are aware).
My guess is that there are not really any vehicles they associate with Masculinity/Feminity (except maybe for the Citadel, which they associate with father issues).
I'm not so sure about this and would be curious to hear from DA students who might enlighten me otherwise.
UPDATE ON CHANDELIER 3/1/2015
A student currently in the Diamond Approach has told me that the Chandelier is taught as two different vehicles in the Ridhwan school.
Pleasure is part of Markabah and is associated with Orange Essence. Below is an extract from the Almaasary:
The Markabah is a structure of essence, composed of all aspects in the diamondform except that in this dimension each aspect appears not only clear, faceted, and precise but also as the very presence of pure pleasure. Each diamond feels and tastes like wonderful piece of candy, with an affect deeply and pleasurably satisfying, a state of consciousness that fills the soul with a pleasurable bliss that penetrates and suffuses all of her field, filling all the cells of the body with a glowing and fulfilling sensation.
Inner Journey Home, p. 240
The Chandelier is not mentioned as often in the Diamond Approach but it is referred to as the Water Chandelier, and together with the Stupa, a student may explore the inner depths of heart.
So is the Chandelier in the Diamond Approach also experienced as a vehicle of beautification and femininity? This is unclear. (If any experienced student or teacher is happy to answer this please write to me through the facebook page on the right. Thanks :))
Here is another quote which talks of the Chandelier:
"Integration of Essential Diamonds Into a Single Structure Depending on the situation, the Diamond Dimension manifests as a field in which the various aspects operate as diamonds, or it arises as one presence in which all the essential diamonds are integrated into a single structure, one operating vehicle. Instead of experiencing one diamond at a time, we experience all diamonds arranged in a particular structure, such as a chandelier, a cathedral, or some other distinctive form."
Source: Spacecruiser Inquiry P216
UPDATE ON STUPA 3/1/2015
In the Diamond Logos the Stupa is seen as the ultimate vehicle, the one that encompasses all the others.
And I remember a few years back a beautiful image drawn by one of my teachers who showed how all the vehicles fit together in the human being as one Stupa.
The Stupa in other words, is the most grand of vehicles.
I'm not sure how that is explained to female students given that it implies the masculine is superior to the feminine, however I do wonder if it is a male centric view of the work.
It may be that given the head teacher is a man, he sees the male vehicle as the most valuable, whereas a highly evolved female may see it differently - may value the Chandelier more, for example.
It would be interesting to hear what Karen Johnson has to say about this.
On a related note, I think I've head Hamid Ali (A.H. Almaas) talk about the Vajra body in similar terms to how Faisal Muqaddam talks about the Stupa.
GOD
In the Diamond Approach God is more inferred than talked about directly. In fact I believe the God word was not used until a few years in during the Living Daylight retreat. I believe it surprised some people at the retreat who considered themselves atheists because the school has a heavier emphasis on psychology than on spirituality in the early stages and they were not expecting to hear that word. Karma is not mentioned and I believe I read somewhere that Hamid Ali does not believe in it as a concept (please correct me if I'm wrong).
So is the Chandelier in the Diamond Approach also experienced as a vehicle of beautification and femininity? This is unclear. (If any experienced student or teacher is happy to answer this please write to me through the facebook page on the right. Thanks :))
Here is another quote which talks of the Chandelier:
"Integration of Essential Diamonds Into a Single Structure Depending on the situation, the Diamond Dimension manifests as a field in which the various aspects operate as diamonds, or it arises as one presence in which all the essential diamonds are integrated into a single structure, one operating vehicle. Instead of experiencing one diamond at a time, we experience all diamonds arranged in a particular structure, such as a chandelier, a cathedral, or some other distinctive form."
Source: Spacecruiser Inquiry P216
UPDATE ON STUPA 3/1/2015
In the Diamond Logos the Stupa is seen as the ultimate vehicle, the one that encompasses all the others.
And I remember a few years back a beautiful image drawn by one of my teachers who showed how all the vehicles fit together in the human being as one Stupa.
The Stupa in other words, is the most grand of vehicles.
I'm not sure how that is explained to female students given that it implies the masculine is superior to the feminine, however I do wonder if it is a male centric view of the work.
It may be that given the head teacher is a man, he sees the male vehicle as the most valuable, whereas a highly evolved female may see it differently - may value the Chandelier more, for example.
It would be interesting to hear what Karen Johnson has to say about this.
On a related note, I think I've head Hamid Ali (A.H. Almaas) talk about the Vajra body in similar terms to how Faisal Muqaddam talks about the Stupa.
GOD
In the Diamond Approach God is more inferred than talked about directly. In fact I believe the God word was not used until a few years in during the Living Daylight retreat. I believe it surprised some people at the retreat who considered themselves atheists because the school has a heavier emphasis on psychology than on spirituality in the early stages and they were not expecting to hear that word. Karma is not mentioned and I believe I read somewhere that Hamid Ali does not believe in it as a concept (please correct me if I'm wrong).
In the Diamond Logos spirituality and God are mentioned from day 1 (depending on the teacher). Karma is something that is taught in the school, especially during the Citadel and other retreats. There is no push towards a particular religion. Spirituality and religion are kept separate.
In the beginning of the Diamond Logos retreats we often listen to guided transmissions by Sogyal Rinpoche. The most common title we use is called Rest in Natural Great Peace. This quietens the mind and tunes the listener to the Absolute. Close your eyes and press play below.
How do you feel after listening to this beautiful Tibetan meditation?
UPDATE 2016: For those of you who want more information about the differences between the Diamond Approach and the Diamond Logos, The Essential Library has now opened with extensive detail comparing the two schools
Really enjoyed this comparison. I'm in the Ridhwan School in Berkeley, CA. Hameed and Karen are regular teachers. It's probably very different compared to your experience there.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I'm friends with the president of the Teacher's Academy for the Diamond Logos, so i know much about them too. I live about 30 minutes from Faisal. :)
I know that transmission is part of the teachings in Ridhwan, but it's not so explicit. Faisal seems to really get into exploring the qualities of each aspect. Hameed has a psychoanalytic background and seems to focus more on the issues that obscure or prevent the realization of each aspect. This probably makes sense to be viewed from an enneagramatic perspective: Faisal is a 4, Hameed is a 5.
Anyway, would love to chat sometime. Do you skype? Send me an email and let's get together.
Marshall
please create an RSS feed so i know when you have written more.... good job.
ReplyDeleteHi,
DeleteIf you join the facebook page by clicking the like button on the red bar below, you will be informed of any updates :)
I've been a student of the Ridhwan school for many years. Regarding the distinction made here about 'direct' and 'indirect' transmission....I'm not entirely sure how you mean these terms. Generally speaking, in Ridhwan, the transmission is the most important aspect or 'conveyance' in any teaching in the school. Ridhwan teachers will typically talk about and describe the aspect, the obstacles to it etc., all the while, the aspect is being invoked and arising in the teaching space.
ReplyDeleteIt seems that Ridhwan and Diamond Logos approach the same territory from different directions. In Ridhwan, they tend to come to the aspect by describing it experientially (or sometimes doing music meditations/visualizations) and by also inquiring into the obstacles (which tend to then open up and bring forth the essential aspect). The latter (exploring the obstacles) tends to be emphasized more than the former, but both are included in the teaching. It sounds like in the DL, it's the reverse -- the aspect itself tends to be focused on and invoked by various means, which then illuminates the obstacles to that aspect.
You definitely left me wanting more . . .or did I miss something. I appreciate your offering as a Ridwhan student going into my eighth year. The way they roll out the teaching in Ridwhan, we may be 13 years in before we hear about the Chandelier etc. We did work on the Beast with loving light about 3.5 years in. I would love to know more about the Petty Tyrant and The Alien; nothing in the Almaasary about those.
ReplyDeleteThanks.
Hi Mr. T,
ReplyDeleteI'm not a teacher and I haven't done extensive work on the 2 so I'll do my best to briefly summarise. The Alien is the part in you that feels exactly as the name suggests. It is cold, lizard like and it attacks when it feels threatened. It is not calculating like the beast. There is a lot of it in American culture (my impression) especially when you walk around cities like Houston for example where there is a big sense of alienation. The Petty Tyrant is the part of the child that says I want it and I want it NOW!!
My take on the Alien is that it is the lizard brain. In my experience, there is a continuum of social interaction that starts at the top with humanity, drops down to primate below that, then mammalian, then reptilian, then (presumably) "chordatian", or the elements we share with all chordate life. Below that is so far down it's beyond the scope of my observation, anyway.
ReplyDeleteMy take is that if human beings do not "initialize" the human layer of interaction with the world in general and other humans in particular, that they will not be confortable dealing with others in uniquely human ways, and may be disabled thereby. At this point they may "fall back" to the primate layer where they may be able to work through hierarchies, social dominance and submission, clans, sexuality, and so forth. Of course, these things "stick up" into the human layer, but they are powered by a more fundamental energy, as anybody who has observed drunken, hooting Sixes at a football game will instantly recognize.
If one cannot operate well in the primate world, it is possible to "fall back" into the mammal level of the family, intimacy, physical contact, nurturing, and so on. I know this level well; I am damaged down to this level and I am much more comfortable with hugging and kissing and stroking, and especially skin on skin intimacy, than more mature sexual expression, which triggers great anxiety.
Those poor bastards who don't initialize their mammalian layer fall into the reptile brain, where the mothers eat their young, or lock them in the car in wintertime while they go into smoke crack, etc. Watch the movie Gone, Baby, Gone to see a number of such damaged characterizations.
This is the layer of the sociopaths, at the very extreme end, and as you inch upward to toward the mammalian level, you get into the Reactive Attachment Disorder band, which I inhabit. (Fortunately I'm high-functioning and partially aware of these tendencies, thanks to my relatively large 5-wing.)
This is all speculation from my own observations.
Thank you Victor, they are some great observations. I am similar to you re mammal level. Recently I read a great book called awakening the tiger - healing trauma by Peter Levine. You can check it out on Amazon it's really the bible for trauma healing.
DeleteAnd thanks to you for this venue. I have wondered how to contact those involved with the two disciplines from outside the formal channels - and ask questions and answer them about our mutual concerns.
DeleteI have so many questions and comments I find it hard to know where to start.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, my experience with the DA is through attending three of the Luminous Night's Journey lectures, working in one of Byron's onramp classes for three or four months, being interviewed (and accepted) for a DH group, and going to a few of Shaykh Hameed's book signings. Oh, and reading all of his books two or three times. My only experience of the DL work is here and through the YouTube videos.
I come to this work after being initiated into the Naqshbandi Order of Sufis over 20 years ago. The Shaykh I took hand with is Shaykh Nazim al-Qubrisi, who has recently retired from his leadership in favor of his son.
Shaykh Nazim is something of a controversial figure amongst Sufis. I have only met him twice and my experience with the tariqat is otherwise 99.99% "Uwasii", or strictly through spiritual contact. I can and will attest that, in my experience, his lineage is intact and is not a "deteriorated" tradition. Its effect is as marked, to me, as the Xmas tree across the room from me at this moment which twinkles and sparkles when it is plugged in.
One of the most trenchant sayings of the Sufis - and there are many - is that a "sincere" student can make even a false teacher into a true teacher. Of course, this has many meanings, the most obvious of which is that the knowledge is there for anybody who is ready for it, Sufi or not, but you must be "prepared" - another rather loaded Sufi technical term, like "sincere".
If I were Roger Zelazny writing Lord of Light, I might say that for the sincere, prepared student, a fall of a leaf into a lake may trigger enlightenment, while to the unaware the Buddha could bellow in his ear all day long to no effect.
Anyway, I am not writing an introduction to my own experience here, but commenting about lineages and transmission.
Writers have said that both "lines", the DA and DL, have spiritual transmission. So does my own "line", and even spiritual groups like BK Frantzis's Taoist healing-spiritual-martial lineage have such subtle transmission of experience, qualities, and information. So it is clear to me that this is a phenomenon not tied to specific groups, but common to all workers in all three centers: Head-centered groups like the DA; Heart-centered groups based around avatars like Mother Meera, and body-centered groups like that of BK Frantzis's Taoist Energy Arts. In fact, my experience is that I was guided to all of these by the Naqshbandi masters "up the line".
Forget "enlightenment" and take what is offered, "development": You can get developed through all three centers, with people who work with them, and the Naqshabandi approach is to work on the elements you need work on, not just the center of your prediliction. I am a 4w5, in the Don Riso Enneagram scheme, and a heart type, but thanks to my 5-wing I can appreciate Shaykh Hameed's work - though it is frustrating "from the outside" without sharing any of the techniques they use for development or purification; these must amount to trade secrets, judging from the trademarking of the Naqsh symbol and securing protection of words and phrases as service marks. I find this sad, by the way, and it reminds me of Scientology.
I ramble; excuse me.
I wanted to open up the concept of lineages of spiritual knowledge and expand the concept to all three spiritual/energetic/evolutionary centers of the human being. They *do* exist, in my experience, and there are *living* lineages, and there *is* hope for us all.
I love the ideas of these two great schools/ teachers but I have felt much frustration with their approaches. Namely that for being approaches that emphasize being a householder like in the 4th Way, you have to devote much time and money to them like in other approaches like a Zen school I used to belong to where you had to spend several thousand a year on retreats to be a full student.
ReplyDeleteNot that it's over the top, it just makes it inaccessible to certain people who may be otherwise dedicated students.
My experience in the DH school was one retreat but couldn't afford the time or the money for it. It was a fine group but seemed like a psychoeducational group based off of what I already knew and has worked through to a significant degree (superego), where on my own I experienced essential value from Almaas's ideas on working with subtle self-hate on the path.
Feeling that the DH school was too much out of reach despite loving Almaas's ideas has driven me to find other innovative means to growth, such as modes of psychotherapy such as short term experiential approaches. For example: AEDP has a phenomenology of change that goes so deep that Dr. Fosha's case studies frequently describe essential states. She calls them "core states." And this approach is not even a transpersonal psychotherapy. IFS is another excellent one.
Although I love the DL and DH ideas from the outside, I have found that I'd rather be on the outside. In my Gurdjieff Group. Although they have a somewhat "impoverished phenomenology of change" compared to the DH and DL, I can "fill in the blanks" with the Focusing Method. It's like another articulation of Inquiry.
I look forward to more posts. Take care.
Hi David,
ReplyDeleteDid you know that both schools offer discounts to students who can't afford the standard price? DH let's you swap time doing admin work or similar for attending retreats. Pls ask them itd be a shame to miss out if you don't need to! Happy inner travels!
For those of you who want more information about the differences between the Diamond Approach and the Diamond Logos, The Essential Library has now opened with extensive detail comparing the two schools http://theessentiallibrary.blogspot.bg/
ReplyDelete